I then took leave of Lord B., and rode down to see an officer who lived a mile beyond his house, and on my return I met his lordship and Count Gamba riding home with great speed, for a heavy shower had just come on.
On reflecting on all that had passed, I thought there were many things which I should have added, and others which I ought to have expressed in a manner more forcible and clear. I thought I had done wrong also in allowing the subject to engross me so much, as I feared lest my long conversation would rather tire than interest him. On examination, however, it appeared to me, that Lord B. shewed no signs of weariness, but continued as attentive and active at the close as at the commencement.
His ideas were rapid, and his associations very singular. He was lively and
animated, and,
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There was nothing in his manner which approached to levity, or any thing that indicated a wish to mock at religion; though, on the other hand, an able dissembler could have done and said all that he did with such feelings and intentions. On the whole, I was satisfied that I had endeavoured simply to do my duty, but I was not satisfied that I had done it well; while I am perfectly uncertain what impression was made on Lord B.’s mind.
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I was not able to visit him so soon as I had intended, as I was seized with a sore throat, which confined me to my room for several days. In the mean time some of our friends visited him, and the conversation with each turned more or less upon me, and on what I had said to him; and what he said was repeated to me by those to whom he had spoken.
I asked one gentleman who was rather intimate with him; “Do you really think that Lord B. is serious in his expressed desire of hearing religion explained: has he exhibited any contempt or ridicule at what I said? I wish to know the truth; because, if his lordship merely wishes to enjoy the novelty of a religious scene, and to study characters, it would be useless to give myself any farther trouble about him: but if he is in earnest, then it is my duty to do all that I can.”
The gentleman assured me, that he had never heard Lord
B. allude to the subject in any way which could induce him to suspect that
he was merely amusing himself, “But on the contrary,” said he,
“he always names you with respect. But,” he added, “I do
not think you have made much impression on him; he is just the same fellow as before.
He says he does not know what religion
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I said I was sorry Lord B. had
misunderstood me on both points. In the first place, my religion is not new; it is the
religion of all real Christians, whether in the church of England, Scotland, or among the
Dissenters, abstracted from all speculation about ceremonies and external
worship;—things which are of minor importance, and on which so many differ, should
not be brought before his lordship’s mind at present. My object was to fix his
attention on the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, respecting which all Christians
were agreed. With respect to the second point, the mistake was equally great; for I had
expressly stated that the three Holy Persons in the Trinity were the same in essence,
though I had said that this essence could never be perfectly comprehended by us, even in
our highest state of enjoyment in heaven: for how could a finite being
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The wits of the garrison made themselves merry with what was going on, and passed many jokes on the subject. Some of them affected to believe,—I know not on what ground,—that Lord B.’s wish to hear me proceeded from his desire to have an accurate idea of the opinions and manners of the Methodists, in order that he might make Don Juan become one for a time, and thus paint their conduct with the greater accuracy and fidelity: some of them did not hesitate to tell me that this was the case, and that, if I were wise, I should let his lordship alone.
My answer was short and decided. “I could not affirm that Lord B. had not the intentions they ascribed to him, but
if he had, he did not act like a gentleman in wishing, of his own accord and at his own
request, to be introduced to me, to hear me on these subjects: but if such were
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After I was recovered, I took the first opportunity of going out to visit his
lordship. I arrived about eleven, and found him at home and disengaged. He said he was
sorry to hear I had been ill. “I intended, if it had continued longer, to call and
visit you.” I thanked him for his politeness, and said, “It was
fortunately a very slight illness, but that poor M. and his wife were very unwell.” His lordship expressed
himself sorry to hear it, and inquired how he was. “The cause of his illness is
very strange. How could a man in his senses act as he did? If he recover, it will be a
lesson to him for the future.” I assured him much of what had been said was
exaggerated, and trusted, that if he recovered, which I hoped, for his own sake and that of
his friends, he would, his illness would tend to fix his mind seriously upon those subjects
which he had hitherto derided. “You have made no convert of him, I
believe,” said his lordship. “How does S. get on? Is he in a fair way
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“Has your lordship,” I said, “read any of the
books I took the liberty of sending?” “I have looked into
Boston, but have not had time to read far. I
am afraid it is too deep for me!” “Be not afraid,” I
said, “but continue, and you will find it easier than you imagine; for how can
that be deep which the most illiterate people understand? The scroll that I sent you
about Warburton, perhaps you will not be able to
make out; if you will give it to me now, I will read it to you, as you may find my
hand-writing difficult. “Not at all,” said his lordship,
“I mean to give all you have sent me a serious perusal; but of late I have
been busy with my correspondence, and in preparing to set out for
Greece.” “When does your lordship
depart?” “I have not fixed the time; I shall wait for
information, and to hear further from Trelawny
and Brown. The discord and dissensions among the
Greeks are still unsettled.” “Would it not be better for
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Count G. here entered the room, and some general conversation was held about the weather and news: after a few moments he retired, and the conversation was resumed between his lordship and myself.
“You will have an opportunity of seeing probably today Lord Sidney Osborne, from
Corfu.” “When did he arrive?” asked his lordship.
“Last night.” “What did he come
for?” “I do not know,” I said; “but rumour
says it is simply to pay you a visit.” “I am very glad of it, I
have not seen him a long time; we are relations. He is a merry fellow, and has some
fine qualities, but I do not know if he is very reli-
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“I have begun,” he said, “very fairly; I have given some of your tracts to Fletcher, who is a good sort of man, but still wants, like myself, some reformation, and I hope he will spread them among the other servants, who require it still more. Bruno and Gamba are busy reading some of the Italian tracts, and I hope it will have a good effect upon them. The former is rather too decided against it at present, and too much engaged with a spirit of enthusiasm for his own profession, to attend to other subjects; but we must have patience, and we shall see what has been the result.” “I pray that it may be a good one, but let them not want your good example, which you know must have a powerful influence upon them.”
“I do not fail,” he said, “to read from time to
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“There was a book,” said his lordship, “which I
intended to shew you; I believe it is here,” going to a side-table on which a
great number of books were ranged. He soon took hold of an octavo, and shewed it to me. I
looked at the title-page, and found it “Illustrations of the Moral Government of God, by E. Smith, M. D., London.” “Have you seen
it?” asked his lordship. “No,” I said, “I had
neither seen it nor heard of it: what is its object?” “The
author,” he replied, “proves that the punishment of hell is not
eternal—it will have a termination.” “This is no new
doctrine,” I said: “the author, I suppose, is one of the
Socinians, who in a short time
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“But,” I said, “how does he account for the
existence of sin and misery in the world at present, and for its having existed six
thousand years? This is equally inconsistent with the idea of the pure love and
goodness of God, or such a notion of it, to the exclusion of his justice and holiness;
and if they exist now in our time, as no one can deny, without being incompatible with
the Divine goodness, why may not sin and misery exist for ever, if sinners remain
impenitent, and
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“Well,” he replied, “it proves the goodness of
God, and is more consistent with the notions of our reason, to believe, that if God,
for wise purposes, permitted sin to exist for a while, in order, perhaps, to bring
about a greater good than could have been effected without it, that his goodness will
be more strikingly manifested, in anticipating the time when every intelligent
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“It would,” I said, “certainly be more suitable
to our ideas of humanity, to believe that hell, or a place of punishment, did not
exist, of that finally it will be abolished, and all, even the devils, rendered happy;
but our ideas and notions, imperfect as we acknowledge ourselves, cannot surely be the
measure by which to judge of God, nor the rule by which he will act. As of ourselves we
cannot ascertain, either by conjecture, hypothesis, or experiment, anything about
eternity, except what God is pleased to reveal to us, his revelation must decide the
point; and we must receive it precisely as it is given, and neither believe more nor
less than what he reveals: and if he reveals a temporary hell, we may believe it, and
rejoice at it, for the sake of those who die impenitent; but if he reveals a hell of
eternal duration, we must receive it, and grant God to know, rather better than we can,
what is compatible with his goodness, and infer with certainty that it must be so, or
it would not be.” “Come,” said his lordship,
“the author founds his belief on the very Scriptures
themselves.” “What does he say?” I asked.
“Here,” said his lordship,
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After glancing over a few pages, I said, “If the author has no
further evidence of the limited duration of eternal punishment than these critical
reasonings upon the meaning of words in the Greek language, and presumes that this
doctrine is more suitable to our ideas of the infinite goodness of God, I am afraid he
will find himself miserably mistaken, when time shall have an end, and when duration is
no longer measured by the heavenly bodies—when, as we have reason to believe,
existence will be eternal, without limit or termination. This existence after time, and
what is meant by Eternal in our language, the Greeks have no other way of expressing
than by the word αίώυιος, from age to age,
forever, eternal: when the word is applied to things and objects of this
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Were it granted, therefore, that in the Scripture these terms
indiscriminately are applied to
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“But why are you,” said his lordship, “so anxious to maintain and prove the eternity of hell punishments? It is certainly not a humane doctrine, and appears very inconsistent with the mild and benevolent doctrines of Christ.” “I maintain it,” I said, “because it is revealed in the Scriptures, and because a disbelief in it renders the whole of the doctrines of Christ perfectly unnecessary, and is quite subversive of them; and it appears nothing else than a delusion of the devil to persuade men to continue in sin here, under the assurance that it will be well with them at last.”
“A real Christian has, in one sense, the least
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“I cannot decide the point,” said his lordship.
“But, to my present apprehension, it would be a most desirable thing, could it
be proved, that ultimately all created beings were to be happy. This would appear to be
most consistent with the nature of God, whose power is omnipotent, and whose principal
attribute is love. I cannot yield to your doctrine of the eternal duration of
punishment; this author’s opinion is more humane, and I think he supports it very
strongly from Scripture.” “Well,” I said, “I
am sorry that I cannot con-
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“You have sent me,” said Lord B., “an account of the death of Lord Rochester, as a tract, par excellence, having a particular reference to me.” “Something of this sort was in my mind when I put up this tract with the others; but my principal wish was to give you a copy of each of the tracts in my possession, in hope that, as they are all good and short, something in one or other of them might arrest your attention.” “But,” added he, “I am not quite satisfied with Lord Rochester’s conversion; there will always remain this uncertainty about it, that perhaps had he recovered, and been placed among his former companions, he would have relapsed: and while this uncertainty
* See Appendix. |
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“Lord Rochester did everything
that a man could do, to prove the sincerity of his conversion; and the presumption is,
that had he lived he would have done more. No Christian can entertain any doubt with
respect to him, though I allow that his case cannot be brought forward as an
irrefragable argument with one who doubts, or who
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“I have looked,” said his lordship, “into ‘Leslie’s Short Method with the Deists,’ and I am not perfectly satisfied with his mode of reasoning. It does not appear to me by any means so demonstrative as many imagine.” “I admit,” I said, “there are many other views of Christianity likely to produce a greater impression on a doubting mind than this work. But you must remember, that this book is confined to a particular point, and is irresistibly demonstrative; though a person might acknowledge the force of the reasoning, without comprehending much of Christianity, or becoming one whit a better Christian.”
We were here interrupted by the arrival of a visitor in the courtyard, and as
I conjectured it to be Lord S., I arose to depart;
“Do stay,” said his lordship, “and we shall have dinner
immediately, your conversation will be useful, perhaps, to Lord
S.” “Excuse me for the present; as you are friends,
and relatives, and have not met for a long time, you must have much to say; and
Lord S. is not likely to be in a humour to care about serious
conversations.” We then walked to the door, and as we descended the stairs.
Lord B. was standing
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